5.1 never ending story

The Virtual Audio Mixer discussions and support...
Alain
Posts: 8
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2019 1:41 pm

Re: 5.1 never ending story

Post by Alain »

alex4vba wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 9:46 am ok you are right... I figured I have to set my receiver to stereo and thats it. That leads me to my very last question:

When I have VM turned off and output directly to my receiver, the receiver will automatically detect the incoming source material and puts itself into the according mode. I tested it with DTS, Dolby Surround and Stereo Material and the receiver outputs the format on its display. But when VM is turned on, all incoming material will show up as multi channel on the receivers display (doesnt show DTS or Dolby Surround) and as mentioned above I have to set the receiver to stereo all channel manually when listening to music. Why isnt it detecting the material automatically anymore?

Any ideas?
That's because Voicemeeter doesn't (and shouldn't IMHO) support DTS/Doly Digital/etc (pass-through).
It is very simpel in your case (example with DTS):

Windows DTS pass-through -> Receiver (converts DTS to PCM and sends that to the internal amp)
With Voicemeeter:
Windows converts DTS to PCM -> Voicemeeter -> Receiver (directly to the internal amp)

Basically with Voicemeeter, your receiver is just an multi channel amp and Windows/VM become the surround processor. Quality wise there is no difference.
xcasxcursex
Posts: 173
Joined: Tue Feb 18, 2020 12:04 am

Re: 5.1 never ending story

Post by xcasxcursex »

I'm half-way through typing this post and I feel the need to apologise for my lengthy posts on this subject. I'm just trying not to skip any details. I hope it's helpful....

I'll give you the TL;DR here though: I don't think that all-channel stereo is what you're after.

...anyway, back to the surround fun ;)

Well, I can tell you how the receiver knows, when you send dolby/dts/etc - when it receives the digital signal over the IEC958 optical connection (TOSLink/SPDIF) a part of that digital signal is a description of the content, so the receiver isn't 'figuring it out', it's being told.

However, most high-end receivers - which yours is - can also 'figure it out' - basically when the signal on the inputs reads zero, it assumes those channels aren't in use and switches to the correct mode appropriately. In that case it will toggle to the mode configured at the receiver.

I think this is your issue here. Because you've selected stereo all-channel, it will take a stereo signal and output it to all channels. It will ONLY ever pay attention to the left and right channels, regardless of whether it is receiving analog or digital, stereo or surround, over HDMI or optical or copper cables ...... No matter what you send it, it will send the front left channel (or just left if stereo) to the left front and left rear speakers, front right (or just right if stereo) to the right front and right rear speakers, either nothing at all or a mix of left and right to the centre speaker, and the same (probably after a lowpass filter) to the subwoofer.... This is stereo all-channel; stereo content, on all speaker channels

That's fine and a good way to listen to stereo content especially if you're an audio purist and do not want your receiver to apply DTS or dolby algorithms to translate 2-channel into 6.... but it won't handle any kind of surround content well at all. If it does get surround content, it'll just never use the other 4 channels (centre, rear l/r and sub) which can sound really really bad (especially if it's ignoring centre channel since that is supposed to carry things like all the dialogue in movies!). That can happen even if you see it light up the dolby logo to tell you it's receiving Dolby surround from your PC.

This part of the dolby/dts world gets confusing, because that name actually means a few different things. It refers to the encoding of multichannel content over a stereo cable, it also refers to taking stereo content and upmixing to surround, and it also refers to taking surround content and downmixing it to stereo. A quick list to give you an idea what I mean: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolby_Lab ... t_a_glance

So, even if you see that dolby light on your receiver, doesn't imply that surround is working. Sometimes it may just mean that the system is receiving dolby encoded audio at the input. Or it might just mean that it is applying dolby algorithms to process whatever input it has. It might be both.... The meaning of the lights and display content differs from one receiver to the next. Super confusing, and I'm afraid I just read the PDF manual for your receiver and it didn't really cover this topic. I feel like there might be a bigger manual I haven't seen yet, so if that thing came with a fat book, enjoy your reading for the evening ;)

There is good news I can give you here though - there is one easy way to make sure it's working. Use the speaker test in windows' sound control panel. The trick here is to make sure of TWO things: When you click on the icon of an individual speaker to test it, you need to check that sound DOES come out of that speaker, but also that it DOES NOT come out of any other speaker.

If you click one speaker in that test window, and you hear it on any of the other speakers on your hifi, then what you are hearing is the hifi manipulating its received source material into a different configuration.


The endgame:

One of the big advantages of having a PC as your sound source is that you are offered an incredible potential to manipulate any media with any audio in any format and intended for any speaker configuration, into any desired output. I recommend you take advantage of that. What I mean by this is, rather than have your hifi automatically detect the source media based on the signal from the PC, have the PC always treat its outputs as whatever the actual configuration of speakers in the room is. If you have two left two right centre and sub, you have 5.1, you have 6 audio channels, so send 6 discrete audio channels, always.

As for handling source media which doesn't have this many channels, such as stereo music? Let the media player deal with that. It's FAR more flexible and controllable than anything you can get working on the hifi. You can choose to use an all-channel stereo approach, or just not use the surround speakers, or go for 2.1 or 3.1 or whatever you want.

As for handling media which is natively encoded with proprietary formats (Dolby/DTS), let the player decode that into discrete channels and output it as such.

As for discrete multichannel audio (rare) just output it as it is.
xcasxcursex
Posts: 173
Joined: Tue Feb 18, 2020 12:04 am

Re: 5.1 never ending story

Post by xcasxcursex »

TheVoice wrote: Sat Mar 13, 2021 10:07 am
xcasxcursex wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 11:19 am Hmm, in order to avoid confusion in future, I must say.... these issues are almost entirely unrelated....
You are right. You had a different problem preventing you from getting 5.1. My point was if someone is searching for an answer to passing 5.1 through VM, they may have your problem, my problem or something different preventing them from successfully passing 5.1 through Voicemeeter. I didn't mean to disturb the thread, but was trying to help would be searchers in the future. If they saw the title, "5.1..." they may be looking for the same goal. If your particular issue didn't line up with theirs, I was offering another possibility in light of the poor search function. I am not a forum etiquette expert. Perhaps it was a misguided attempt.
Sorry, I did try to point out that I understood that, and to elaborate on the lesson you brought to this thread. It is a very useful contribution and I thank you for bringing it here, it was not a disturbance at all! Your forum etiquette is just fine mate :) It's important that people understand what you told them!
xcasxcursex
Posts: 173
Joined: Tue Feb 18, 2020 12:04 am

Re: 5.1 never ending story

Post by xcasxcursex »

Alain wrote: Sat Mar 13, 2021 11:51 am (example with DTS):

Windows DTS pass-through -> Receiver (converts DTS to PCM and sends that to the internal amp)
With Voicemeeter:
Windows converts DTS to PCM -> Voicemeeter -> Receiver (directly to the internal amp)

Basically with Voicemeeter, your receiver is just an multi channel amp and Windows/VM become the surround processor. Quality wise there is no difference.
I want to quote this excellent post for emphasis. It's important to think of it this way!

Thanks, Alain!
alex4vba
Posts: 12
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2018 3:00 pm

Re: 5.1 never ending story

Post by alex4vba »

First I want to thank you all for the informations on this. I think everything is a bit more clear for me now sound protocol wise...

The solution to switch to the NVIDIA HDMI was surprisingly good in terms of buffersize and that it just worked. But than new issues came up with this, too. Everytime I wake up my computer I have to reset the device on A3 in VM. Everytime I turn on my receiver the graphicscard is getting the signal of a new device and readjusting all outputs so that my monitors would turn off and back on again which was kind of annoying. By now the graphics card doesnt recognize the output to my receiver anymore and showing "Not plugged in", eventhough I can still activate it in my display settings... Only when I activate the display output, the sound options is showing the receiver is connected as well, which is not so good if I just want to listen to music!

I am a fan of seperation of concerns so I probably would rather go back to use a sound card for my sound output in general. Can you maybe recommend a soundcard which is affordable (up to 100 Euros) and would suit my case?
xcasxcursex
Posts: 173
Joined: Tue Feb 18, 2020 12:04 am

Re: 5.1 never ending story

Post by xcasxcursex »

I'll spare the long post here and say: I'd grab a GT1030 (I am >99.999% positive this works, I've got a 1050 here doing this job and it's the same basically) or maybe (This is half the price but I can't 100% confirm it will work but it SHOULD work!) a GT710. I lean toward Nvidia because I know they will work but I hear that AMD cards will do the job fine so maybe entertain that possibility too.

A slightly cheaper and maybe worthwhile choice would be to look into blocking pin 19 (I'll leave you to search that one, options range from nice adapter thingos like monitordetectkiller to literally a strip of tape) and/or a displayport-HDMI converter. This thread: https://hardforum.com/threads/is-there- ... o.1896250/ is of interest - it's old but it's still relevant.

Actual sound cards dedicated to this job basically don't exist. The Auzentech HTHD was the last I can think of and that is long gone :( Down from there you get lower end solutions (optical, compressed, and software driven thus no good for timing-critical use cases like ours) and up from there you go into discrete multichannel DACs ie uber expensive recording studio devices (M-Audio probably the cheapest around) or HDMI audio de-embedders if you want to get the DAC out of your receiver (probably not necessary with a nice receiver)
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