PRE-FADER definition?

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JBP
Posts: 73
Joined: Sun Dec 16, 2018 3:03 am

PRE-FADER definition?

Postby JBP » Wed Jan 16, 2019 5:34 am

Vincent Burel wrote:sure, when we say "Pre-Fader" , it means before Intellipan, Comp, Gate...

:arrow:
Image :!:
Quod erat demonstrandum!

Besides Intellipan, Comp, Gate the ASIO PATCH INSERT is also affected by this glitch!

What do we do now?

I have a high latency workaround with VB CABLE.
And I have a ultra low latency workaround by using a modular host for PATCH INSERT to clone HW inputs.

I hesitate to give you detailed instructions, because I think it would be easier to fix that glitch in an update to keep the level of confusion for normal users as low as possible.

For advanced users only:
ImageUsing free beta version 1.58 of Image-Line's MiniHostModular as host for the insert processing:

Though we have not selected a device for Hardware Input 2 it shows an input signal! This is the untouched input signal of Hardware Input 1 that we have cloned in our ASIO (VST) host app by connecting Patch Insert In#1 stereo input with Patch Insert In#2 stereo output.

I hope that besides PRE-FADER fix an update would change the routing.
The ASIO PATCH INSERT should be first post input pin (pre-fader pin) followed by INTELLIPAN, Comp. and Gate.

At the moment ASIO PATCH INSERT is post INTELLIPAN, Comp. and Gate and this way it is really a waste of opportunities.

Vincent Burel
Site Admin
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Re: PRE-FADER definition?

Postby Vincent Burel » Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:33 am

Just made a tour on this PRE-FADER Question and finally it seems we have intially defined PRE-FADER as after strip FX (means after INTELLIPAN, COMP, GATE, MONO process).

(1) since the beginning, Virtual ASIO INSERT is located before fader/mute/solo, but after STRIP FX (INTELLIPAN, COMP, GATE, MONO processing). see picture on user manual page 49: https://www.vb-audio.com/Voicemeeter/Vo ... Manual.pdf

(2) PATCH COMPOSITE PRE-FADER is also defined after STRIP FX (and it is like that since the beginning too).

(3) PRE FADER INPUT for INTEGRATED RECORDER are also defined after STRIP FX (but i don't know if it's done like that since the beginning).

REM: Only AUDIO API Callback can be truly PRE-FADER (PRE STRIP FX).

Since it's not a regression, i will be obliged to define an option to change this... will think about...

JBP
Posts: 73
Joined: Sun Dec 16, 2018 3:03 am

Re: PRE-FADER definition?

Postby JBP » Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:25 am

Vincent Burel wrote:(1) since the beginning, Virtual ASIO INSERT is located before fader/mute/solo, but after STRIP FX (INTELLIPAN, COMP, GATE, MONO processing). see picture on user manual page 49: https://www.vb-audio.com/Voicemeeter/Vo ... Manual.pdf

I know. I have just read it again, Yesterday. :D
The question is:
Was this order based on a debate of pros and cons?
Personally, I can find much more pros for Patch ASIO Insert before STRIP FX (INTELLIPAN, COMP, GATE, MONO processing).

And PRE-FADER, well, I totally agree with your initial statement, that it should be the input signal without any FX.
Now the only difference between PRE-FADER and POST-FADER is more or less the fader gain.
So, you can still call it PRE-FADER (yes it is!), but honestly most people expect it to be without any FX (even Vincent Burel). :D

user4711
Posts: 20
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2019 6:57 pm

Re: PRE-FADER definition?

Postby user4711 » Wed Jan 16, 2019 11:17 am

if you think it is not usefull to record without insert effects. there is a great headphone correction VST plugin for only around 35$. demo can download and can test all features. https://www.toneboosters.com/tb_morphit_v1.html i have a cheap sony ZX310 and if i wish hear how a DT990 sound, i can simulate it. and much more headphones. Or when i have a DT990 i can correct this to sound linear. that it work good i can hear in apple phone headphones and my sony ZX310. they sound then much more simular to my calibrate speaker.

Maybe this find Vincent usefull to have and he is motivited to do a VST plugin slot earlier before recorder record, so can add speaker or headphone correct plugins. when have a vst plugin slot the double latency because of insert devices do not happen.

JBP
Posts: 73
Joined: Sun Dec 16, 2018 3:03 am

Re: PRE-FADER definition?

Postby JBP » Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:09 pm

user4711 wrote:if you think it is not usefull to record without insert effects. there is a great headphone correction VST plugin for only around 35$.
:?: :?: :?:
Sorry, I cannot understand what you want to tell us.

We are talking all the time about Pre-Fader in the true meaning of the word:
To record without any FX!
You also asked for that with your own thread.

You have to learn that best place for speaker correction is post the BUSSES (A1 - A5, B1, B2, B3) with the built-in parametric EQs or the additional 15 band graphic EQ.
Not the insert processing!


Generally there exist no problem of too much latency with ASIO.
You have a problem with latency, because you insist to use MME.
MME is the reason for too much latency, not ASIO!

Stop using MME!
Your life will be much easier.

There is no need for an extra built-in VST-slot.
Potato has ASIO PATCH INSERT and external FX send and return!

user4711
Posts: 20
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2019 6:57 pm

Re: PRE-FADER definition?

Postby user4711 » Wed Jan 16, 2019 5:03 pm

JBP wrote:You have to learn that best place for speaker correction is post the BUSSES (A1 - A5, B1, B2, B3) with the built-in parametric EQs or the additional 15 band graphic EQ.
Not the insert processing!



this give not good results and is hard to use. because there is no way to measure and correct the values. also need for speakers left and right speaker correct independent, because often 1 speaker is more near a wall as other speaker.

better results can get if voicemeeter is able to play iir impulses in the busses. then it is possible to record a impulse of the speaker correction VST and play the impulse in voicemeeter.

I have yesterday do a song and use voicemeeter and asio. after some time of use i get crackle sometimes at 6 ms asio. I need increase to 10 ms ASIO too, that it always work stable and on high CPU loud with vsti instruments. with inserts then latency is 20 ms

did it on your system not happen with short asio lantencies (5 ms) that after some time suddenly even play a youtube video give every 20 sec crackle ?

its really strange because long time it work without problem and CPU load did not change. and then suddenly there happen often crackles.
Is there nobody in this forum, that use other sounddevice as the realtek onboard chip and can test spdif out too ?. I use SSD and hardrive defragmentation is off. I have a harddrive, but this is selden used. windows install is on SSD. and i have 16 GB ram, which have enough free

maybe realtek soundchip is better, because it sit on the board and it have exact same clock crystal as the timers of PC

JBP
Posts: 73
Joined: Sun Dec 16, 2018 3:03 am

Re: PRE-FADER definition?

Postby JBP » Wed Jan 16, 2019 7:15 pm

user4711 wrote:
JBP wrote:You have to learn that best place for speaker correction is post the BUSSES (A1 - A5, B1, B2, B3) with the built-in parametric EQs or the additional 15 band graphic EQ.
Not the insert processing!



this give not good results and is hard to use. because there is no way to measure and correct the values. also need for speakers left and right speaker correct independent, because often 1 speaker is more near a wall as other speaker.

better results can get if voicemeeter is able to play iir impulses in the busses. then it is possible to record a impulse of the speaker correction VST and play the impulse in voicemeeter.…
Obviously you have not noticed "Channel Select" option in the BUS EQ for independant equalization of channels (including left and right!).

EDIT
(I had written something here that was possibly over the line.
I do apologize if someone had already read it and had the impression that it was rude.
That was not my intention!)


I hope, at least I helped you with the ASIO Insert splitting option of the signal in Minihost Modular?
Last edited by JBP on Thu Jan 17, 2019 9:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

JBP
Posts: 73
Joined: Sun Dec 16, 2018 3:03 am

Re: PRE-FADER definition?

Postby JBP » Wed Jan 16, 2019 8:58 pm

user4711 wrote:this give not good results and is hard to use

The BUS EQ gives good results if you use Channel Select option!
And if your speakers or/and headphones are not absolute garbage.

Maybe not 100 percent perfect, of course!

Some people trust measuring, others can trust their ears!

If you (as a super pro user) cannot live without impulse response measuring, then you have to use something else ( :arrow: Sonarworks Reference 4 Studio Edition - 299€) post Voicemeeter or keep your individual strip insert processing approach with correction via an appropiate VST Plugin.

I have said it already before:
One day we all wake up and Voicemeeter will be a meta-DAW if Vincent implements all feature requests! :mrgreen:

Vincent Burel
Site Admin
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Re: PRE-FADER definition?

Postby Vincent Burel » Thu Jan 17, 2019 7:09 am

JBP wrote:but honestly most people expect it to be without any FX (even Vincent Burel). :D


Yes, this is Right! will change this in a next version.

JBP
Posts: 73
Joined: Sun Dec 16, 2018 3:03 am

Re: PRE-FADER definition?

Postby JBP » Thu Jan 17, 2019 9:39 am

Vincent Burel wrote:Yes, this is Right! will change this in a next version.
Thanks!

Maybe the ASIO Insert could also be placed before
INTELLIPAN with that update :?:
:arrow:
Imagine someone wants to use a denoiser as ASIO Insert.
At the moment placed post INTELLIPAN really makes no sense.
Only if you do not use any INTELLIPAN FX at all.

I guess many users change INTELLIPAN settings spontaneously on-the-fly.


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