[Feature Request] Can MME output support smaller buffers as 480 ?

The Virtual Audio Mixer discussions and support...
user4711
Posts: 20
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2019 6:57 pm

[Feature Request] Can MME output support smaller buffers as 480 ?

Postby user4711 » Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:16 am

because other outputs does not work with volumouse, can you please create a testversion that support buffers smaller as 480 Samples for MME hardware out ?.

the latency display of reaper show with 480 samples 10/21 ms . when choose 512 samples show 11/23 ms. with WDM 256 samples show 5.8/11 ms.

so if can choose in MME 256 samples is good. maybe fast system on windows 10 have no problem with 256 samples buffer
I read that windows 10 is better in latency as older windows. read here

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/window ... ency-audio
Before Windows 10, the latency of the Audio Engine was equal to ~12ms for applications that use floating point data and ~6ms for applications that use integer data

In Windows 10, the latency has been reduced to 1.3ms for all applications

The Audio Engine writes the processed data to a buffer.

Before Windows 10, this buffer was always set to ~10ms.

Starting with Windows 10, the buffer size is defined by the audio driver (more details on this are described later in this topic).


Vincent Burel
Site Admin
Posts: 840
Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2010 12:01 pm

Re: [Feature Request] Can MME output support smaller buffers as 480 ?

Postby Vincent Burel » Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:14 pm

yes, but it works only if the driver is using last WIN10 driver model and if the application use WASAPI interface (not MME)... but i will see if i can extend the latency menu for MME buffering...

user4711
Posts: 20
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2019 6:57 pm

Re: [Feature Request] Can MME output support smaller buffers as 480 ?

Postby user4711 » Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:53 pm

I notice that the voicemeeter insert asio use 480 samples too when MME use 480 samples.
thats good if can choose in latency menu buffers less 480 samples, because then the insert buffer is reduced too.

if disable insert (but i need for speaker correction) 480 sample MME is good for realtime play. but with insert can hear a delay. Or maybe it is easy possible for you to program that the asio insert use the sample number /2 on MME. then the insert have 240 samples on 480 samples in MME.

JBP
Posts: 73
Joined: Sun Dec 16, 2018 3:03 am

Re: [Feature Request] Can MME output support smaller buffers as 480 ?

Postby JBP » Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:42 pm

Try the following:

1. Save Potato (v3.0.0.5) settings as "Potato stable.xml" and "MMEtest.xml"

2. Then open "MMEtest.xml" with (Windows) Editor and search for "mme".

3. Replace "480" with "256" and save it as "MMEtest.xml"

4. Load "MMEtest.xml" settings with Potato


I have just tried that.
Not sure if it really works, but Potato seems to accept this setting (in system settings MME shows: 256).
I have select MME: CABLE Input as output A5.
No warning!

But I have not checked if it really works.

I assume that your audio card (old Soundblaster?) will not accept MME connection lower than 480 samples.
Maybe I am wrong.
Anyway.
You can try it without waiting for another Potato/Banana release!

JBP
Posts: 73
Joined: Sun Dec 16, 2018 3:03 am

Re: [Feature Request] Can MME output support smaller buffers as 480 ?

Postby JBP » Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:58 pm

user4711 wrote:Can MME output support smaller buffers as 480, because other outputs does not work with volumouse…

Your sound card is the obstacle (problem), not Volumouse or the type of output in general!
:!:

user4711
Posts: 20
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2019 6:57 pm

Re: [Feature Request] Can MME output support smaller buffers as 480 ?

Postby user4711 » Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:38 pm

i change file and i can really get lower buffer size as 480. can see in asio driver too when i set to 400 or 440. but 480 is really lowest limit. 400 and 440 do crackle

my soundcard is not the problem.Have you more soundcards to test. USB or spdif output ?. i can test several. loudspeaker work, spdif out work not. I have aureon xfire 8 hd. it have a volume knob. work in mme with spdif and WDM or KS not.

the thing seem, realtek on speaker work ok. if spdif on realtek work i can not test. my board have no spdif output

JBP
Posts: 73
Joined: Sun Dec 16, 2018 3:03 am

Re: [Feature Request] Can MME output support smaller buffers as 480 ?

Postby JBP » Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:00 am

user4711 wrote:…my soundcard is not the problem…

You cannot use it via WDM in Volumouse.
But most other WDM audio devices work properly with Volumouse.
:arrow: Sorry, your sound card is the problem.
Not Volumouse, not WDM!

In the other thread you have reported, that your Soundblaster Z works as WDM device with Volumouse as long as exclusive mode is disabled!
Correct?

I have just made an interesting observation:
If I use Realtek HD Audio as A1 main hardware output in Voicemeeter, exclusive mode in WIN 7 system settings must be enabled to have low latency (256 samples at 48 KHz).
Ok, just the way you expect it.

:!: But if I use ASIO4all as A1 main hardware output in Voicemeeter, exclusive mode in WIN 7 system settings for Realtek HD Audio can be switched off!!!
ASIO4all still reports 256 samples latency!
I have verified this with multiple WIN system restarts!

The exclusive mode options in Voicemeeter must be enabled (but not in WIN system settings!) if ASIO4all is used as A1, at least for Realtek HD Audio (and my old WIN 7 driver). :!:
Last edited by JBP on Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

JBP
Posts: 73
Joined: Sun Dec 16, 2018 3:03 am

Re: [Feature Request] Can MME output support smaller buffers as 480 ?

Postby JBP » Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:59 am

I have no SPDIF at the moment.
I have a Terratec EWS 64 XL under my bed with SPDIF,
but it is ISA-slot based!
ISA?
Ask your Grandfather what ISA was!


But I have another idea for you based on my own setup:

Do not use Aureon with MME in Voicemeeter!
Instead use your Realtek with WDM for low latency.
Select WDM Realtek Speakers in Volumouse.

Use your Aureon with its ASIO driver and connect Realtek HD Output with the input of the Aureon.

This idea is based on my own setup:
I still like to use the old SRS Audio Sandbox especially for TV and movies.
But I also like to play VST instruments at the same time.

The SRS Audio Sandbox does not support (of course) ASIO or any virtual audio driver.
So, I use a workaround:
I use ASIO4all as A1 (256 samples at 48 KHz) and set WDM latency to 160 to get ultra low 80 samples input latency in swift mode for physical audio input in Voicemeeter.
ASIO4all uses Realtek HD Output WDM only.

Volumouse could control Realtek Speakers Output, but I prefer to use SRS Audio Sandbox (WDM).
In Voicemeeter A2 uses KS: SRS Audio Sandbox.
KS is set to 256 samples in Voicemeeter system settings.
SRS Audio Sandbox uses NVIDIA High Definition Audio (HDMI) as output.
I physically connect my LG monitor's audio output with Realtek HD input (hardware input in Voicemeeter!).

I know that it is some kind of resampling-orgy including quality lost.
And of course it is limited to stereo (no native surround).
A2 in Voicemeeter uses "Up Mix TV" option to feed fake surround to SRS KS input.
SRS Audio Sandbox operates in stereo mode with TruSurround®XT on (emulating virtual surround with stereo speakers).
What a mess?
Yes, it is.

But seriously, I do not care, because I can change volume for video and audio playing content rapidely with Volumouse, while at the same time I can play and record VST instruments with low latency.

I know it is a very special (unique?) setup, but I have no plans to win an award for superb audio engineering for it. ;)

Vincent Burel
Site Admin
Posts: 840
Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2010 12:01 pm

Re: [Feature Request] Can MME output support smaller buffers as 480 ?

Postby Vincent Burel » Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:31 am

user4711 wrote:I notice that the voicemeeter insert asio use 480 samples too when MME use 480 samples.
thats good if can choose in latency menu buffers less 480 samples, because then the insert buffer is reduced too.

if disable insert (but i need for speaker correction) 480 sample MME is good for realtime play. but with insert can hear a delay. Or maybe it is easy possible for you to program that the asio insert use the sample number /2 on MME. then the insert have 240 samples on 480 samples in MME.


Our virtual ASIO driver are using same sample rate and same buffer size than the Voicemeeter Main Stream.
However; MME is not done to manage small latency buffer, you may use WDM or ASIO device as output A1 if you want to go below 512 sample buffer.

user4711
Posts: 20
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2019 6:57 pm

Re: [Feature Request] Can MME output support smaller buffers as 480 ?

Postby user4711 » Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:26 am

JBP wrote:
user4711 wrote:…my soundcard is not the problem…

You cannot use it via WDM in Volumouse.
But most other WDM audio devices work properly with Volumouse.
:arrow: Sorry, your sound card is the problem.
Not Volumouse, not WDM!

In the other thread you have reported, that your Soundblaster Z works as WDM device with Volumouse as long as exclusive mode is disabled!
Correct?

I have just made an interesting observation:
If I use Realtek HD Audio as A1 main hardware output in Voicemeeter, exclusive mode in WIN 7 system settings must be enabled to have low latency (256 samples at 48 KHz).
Ok, just the way you expect it.

:!: But if I use ASIO4all as A1 main hardware output in Voicemeeter, exclusive mode in WIN 7 system settings for Realtek HD Audio can be switched off!!!
ASIO4all still reports 256 samples latency!
I have verified this with multiple WIN system restarts!

The exclusive mode options in Voicemeeter must be enabled (but not in WIN system settings!) if ASIO4all is used as A1, at least for Realtek HD Audio (and my old WIN 7 driver). :!:


WDM does always crackle even with 1024 samples when exclusive is not enable in windows sound prefs. on soundblaster z

do you have a silent PC to test and is connect to 220 volt ?. did you have a amplifier that is connect to 220 Volt and have you speakers that output frequency of 18 khz good ?. when have on your amp volume so much increase that even silent "Mixed for Itunes songs" can play loud enough you hear no highfreq noise or any other noise on your speaker if you hear no music(i not always hear music when i use my pc) ?. I have a Asus H310(very new model)but this and my older board can then hear lots chipper noise from realtek. you can hear on this video how it sound. sound of noise depend on what PC do. if move mouse or so, noise sound change.

other have this problem too. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l46cnv95a3A at 1 min 32

if you can tell me which soundcard with spdif i should buy and really work with volumouse and spdif i can do that. My board have pins for spdif out. but i need a electronic that convert it to optical. can not easy buy. and if i have this, then it is not clear if realtek really allow volume control. maybe they have in WDM or KS just forget to allow volume control on spdif. most users use no spdif

If you only use realtek speaker out, then you can not say that it work for more. it is clear that realtek have the best drivers because they have lots chip sell and so they have lots money. in prefessional world spdif out is very selden and i wish not buy a sounbox for 300$

WDM always allow no sound volume choose. the xfire USB box do not work with lower as 512 samples WDM or KS. ponly with MME it work with 480 samples. so i guess it can work with lower samples too. but thanks to your test it is clear mme do not work with less as 480 sample. on soundblaster z (which is a modern soundcard) too

with the asio driver for aureon xfire it use 176 samples (4 ms). but this asio driver do not work with spdif. the noise of the xfire is a little less as the realtek, but still hear


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